Curse

faraaz · Apr 02, 2009, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Post a screenshot of you doing Duncan HM with these constraints:

1. One human, preferably Elementalist primary since that's the class I used.
2. Up to three heroes (you may use less if you wish).
3. No consumables, summoning stones, DP removers, candy, etc.
4. You may use any PvE skill you wish.
5. You may not abuse AI - that is, you may not gather aggro and unleash AoE the way Cryway and Obsidian / perma / Ursan tanking works.

I'm going to refer to the great Sirlin's words here to voice my opinions on the epic fail in PvE that OP is.

Quote:

In the world of Street Fighter competition, there is a word for players who aren't good: "scrub." Everyone begins as a scrub---it takes time to learn the game to get to a point where you know what you're doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or "learn" the game, that one can become a top player. In reality, the "scrub" has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game.

Quote:

...he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules...

Quote:

...the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary.

Quote:

The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing.

Quote:

The scrub has still more crutches. He talks a great deal about "skill" and how he has skill whereas other players--very much including the ones who beat him flat out--do not have skill.

I highly recommend giving the full article a thorough read, if only for the entertainment value.

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playi...in-part-1.html

Jeydra · Apr 02, 2009, 11:14 PM // 23:14

@lutz - except they won the mAT afterwards, yeah, and the next balance change led to massive nerfs against their build. So much for a very beatable build. Maybe you should tell Mitch he doesn't deserve his gold cape since he couldn't beat pre-nerf rawrspike.

I conclude that while you may be a lot better than me at PvP (seeing you're from [Vibe] after all), you're not my match in PvE.

@faraaz - Lol you're imagining things.

Let me tell you this. Of the constraints I've listed, the only one that is even free to change is the 'abuse enemy AI option'. For the first, getting another human takes time. Given the number of people willing to do Duncan HM in Umbral Grotto these days, it might take over 30 minutes for you to get a full team, if you can even get one. For the second, the game limits you to 3 heroes, you can't bring more. For the third, consumables / DP removers / summoning stones / candy etc costs in-game or even real life cash. The fourth is no constraint, it's even a statement of freedom.

Like I said, the fifth is the only 'imaginable' constraint I've set, and let me also tell you this: while Duncan HM is doable with Obsidian / perma / Ursan tanking in a H/H situation, it is also a lot harder than just rolling through with Lingering Curse. That's because heroes and henchmen are terrible with the obsidian tanking build. I know, because I did it. I doubt you have. If you really have, go ahead and try it, and then post a screenshot. Make sure you include the /age, and the builds of all your heroes, if only so the DP on all of them is visible. I also started trying out Lingering Curse because the Ursan tanking build I originally used was simply too agonizing to use consistently.

Any more questions?

By the looks of it, there're so many people who've made posts here pouring scorn on me, and yet have not been able to simply post a screenshot showing they are at least equal me in terms of skill - or have enough confidence to call me out and challenge me to post a screenshot. I don't claim to be the finest PvE'er around; I'm sure Sacratus Ignis, or Ra Hathor, or other folks offering services here on Guru, know more about PvE than me. But I'm betting I know more than some people who've posted here.

Shayne Hawke · Apr 02, 2009, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Well, let me put it this way: if they nerf Lingering Curse in PvE and don't touch Save Yourselves, Cry of Pain, Shadow Form, etc., then ANet doesn't know balance, assuming they still would regardless.

Kattar · Apr 03, 2009, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

yet have not been able to simply post a screenshot showing they are at least equal me in terms of skill - or have enough confidence to call me out and challenge me to post a screenshot.

You have got to be joking.

Pro tip: If you don't want people to pour scorn all over you, don't post here. And definitely don't post anything like what I quoted above.

If you'd like to challenge another user to a duel, pistols at dawn, feel free. But do it via pm. If you'd like to continue the discussion on this idea, feel free. Do not feel free to call out any other user in any manner ever again. First and last warning.

lutz · Apr 03, 2009, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@lutz - except they won the mAT afterwards, yeah, and the next balance change led to massive nerfs against their build. So much for a very beatable build. Maybe you should tell Mitch he doesn't deserve his gold cape since he couldn't beat pre-nerf rawrspike.

I conclude that while you may be a lot better than me at PvP (seeing you're from [Vibe] after all), you're not my match in PvE.

@faraaz - Lol you're imagining things.

Let me tell you this. Of the constraints I've listed, the only one that is even free to change is the 'abuse enemy AI option'. For the first, getting another human takes time. Given the number of people willing to do Duncan HM in Umbral Grotto these days, it might take over 30 minutes for you to get a full team, if you can even get one. For the second, the game limits you to 3 heroes, you can't bring more. For the third, consumables / DP removers / summoning stones / candy etc costs in-game or even real life cash. The fourth is no constraint, it's even a statement of freedom.

Like I said, the fifth is the only 'imaginable' constraint I've set, and let me also tell you this: while Duncan HM is doable with Obsidian / perma / Ursan tanking in a H/H situation, it is also a lot harder than just rolling through with Lingering Curse. That's because heroes and henchmen are terrible with the obsidian tanking build. I know, because I did it. I doubt you have. If you really have, go ahead and try it, and then post a screenshot. Make sure you include the /age, and the builds of all your heroes, if only so the DP on all of them is visible. I also started trying out Lingering Curse because the Ursan tanking build I originally used was simply too agonizing to use consistently.

Any more questions?

By the looks of it, there're so many people who've made posts here pouring scorn on me, and yet have not been able to simply post a screenshot showing they are at least equal me in terms of skill - or have enough confidence to call me out and challenge me to post a screenshot. I don't claim to be the finest PvE'er around; I'm sure Sacratus Ignis, or Ra Hathor, or other folks offering services here on Guru, know more about PvE than me. But I'm betting I know more than some people who've posted here.

1. Gold capes are dependent on the meta. [rawr] was extremely overdominant in the rawrspike meta (which lasted far too long), until they were beat out by [Shat at their own build, which caused them to shift to the [nH] build. In this [nH] build meta, [KMD] proved to be decent at splitting with the [nH] build and 8v8ing as well as playing the honorless [NOW] spike.

2. [Vibe] vanished.

3. PvE is all about memorization and familiarity with areas, aside from basic techniques such as pulling, etc. PvP is high familiarity with game mechanics, skills, tactics and (to some extent) appropriate micromanagement. PvP techniques can easily be applied to PvE. Since identical motions and movements result in (functionally) identical results (which is not the case for PvP), it's a different realm when in the opposite direction. (which wasn't originally supposed to be the case when Guild Wars was first released, but I suppose it has morphed into this situation)

zwei2stein · Apr 03, 2009, 06:53 AM // 06:53

If you are "pro pve playzor", you would find another way to roll that dungeon without Lingering in heartbeat. And would not spend time pre-whining on possible nerf. Such adamant whining usually means that you can't beat it without that skill. Whole beg-for-replacement-build is self illustrating. What a show of skill.

That simple.

PS: Where are your screenshots?

Longasc · Apr 03, 2009, 07:36 AM // 07:36

I just wonder why my Necro should use her elite slot for "Lingering Curse".

It is definitely not overpowered in PvE. The 33% heal reduction usually does not have significance in PvE, and some mild degeneration of -3 is supporting other degen skills, but it is not a killer ability. Spiteful Spirit and Discord are still better.

Lingering Curse was once 25 energy, making it ineffective for both PvE and PvP.

The problem is again the dichotomy of Guild Wars:
PvE and PvP do not work the same, LC is for sure not a problem in PvE, but might be one in PvP.

It would really be sad if LC gets nerfed as Jeydra found a use for it in PvE, which is actually good, another way to tackle a HM Stone Summit mob. Alternatives are fun.

On the other hand, separating skills once more in a PvE and a PvP version does not make me happy either. I would vote for two Guild Wars 2 products, "World of Guildcraft" and "Guild Wars 2: Tournament"...^^

But wait for the skill balance and the april update and the high expectations connected with it, it will probably cause much more turmoil than this skill ever could.

Jeydra · Apr 03, 2009, 11:48 AM // 11:48

@lutz - OK, so what's your point?

@zwei2stein - just went to get one, here you go. I reached Duncan some 27 minutes into the dungeon with 10% morale boost on everyone. It's probably not the fastest time achievable or anything - I played quite carefully and cleared all the Restless Dead popups. The DP came because the henchmen refused to die at Duncan's feet (and I wasn't paying attention, since I was swapping spirits). That forced me to suicide once. Master of Whispers and Gwen died because I made mistakes and didn't prot them in time. Surprisingly it took almost 30 minutes for Duncan to die. No idea why, the game seemed rather buggy at that time - Olias refused to use SS even when I ordered him to, and Signet of Sorrow actually COST him HP to cast (487 HP -> 439 HP).

Screenshot immediately after aggroing Duncan (total time = 27 minutes).

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4103/gw101.jpg

Screenshot of Olias killing Duncan (appreciate it, I had to wait >20 minutes during which I couldn't go AFK).

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3397/gw105l.jpg

Screenshot at the end of the run (total time = 54 minutes). You can see another bug in that Gwen actually ressed with non-max HP. The chest also dropped only THREE items (wtf?).

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1592/gw106t.jpg

In case you're wondering what screenshots 102-104 are, they're some I took so I can report the Signet of Sorrow bug above to ANet.

I was actually debating the wisdom of uploading these screenshots actually. Now that I've done this, I bet I won't change anybody's mind anyway, so what's the point? But you asked for it, and I don't really mind people copying my builds so why not.

EDIT: LMAO, now I notice that the screenshots do not have 'Hard Mode' in it. Wow. Not having Hard Mode in it even though I'm absolutely sure I played through HM to get there. Weird bug? Great, now I have to go get another set of screens ...

EDIT#2: Since it'll take me a fair while to get to Duncan again, here's an old screenshot of the same thing. I remember this run to be 59 minutes, but I didn't type /age, so I can't prove it. Still, the morale boosts should indicate how hard it was.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/750/gw099c.jpg

draxynnic · Apr 04, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

You know, I really don't see where the anti is comging from.

While we all know Lingering Curse is creating issues in PvP, in PvE it's far from breaking anything. Most of the time it's pretty much useless, let alone worth an elite slot. Jeydra's found one of the places where it's useful, furthermore, useful enough to render an elite area H/Hable rather than having to attune to the demands of PuGs who are only interested in doing things the One True Way.

More power to him, I say.

Does the PvE side of the game really benefit from Lingering Curse being returned to the waste heap of Less Able To Make Effective-ness? I don't think so. The only argument I can see for nerfing LC in PvE is to keep the PvP/PvE split to a minimum.

That said, it's possible that a carefully targetted nerf could weaken it sufficiently in PvP without killing it in PvE. PvP necros are a lot more sensitive to energy costs than their PvE counterparts, for instance - an increase in the cost to, say, 15 energy could keep it viable but not overpowered in both.

Jeydra, would you care to comment on your LC necro's energy requirements? How much would a modest increase in casting cost affect your build?

zwei2stein · Apr 05, 2009, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Does the PvE side of the game really benefit from Lingering Curse being returned to the waste heap of Less Able To Make Effective-ness? I don't think so. The only argument I can see for nerfing LC in PvE is to keep the PvP/PvE split to a minimum.

Another agrument for LC nerf is that: It won't necesarilly kill skill for PvE.

People only remeber skills being Smitebooned, but that was not case for vast majority of ballances. Little duration here, little recharge there and you will not notice a thing in PvE.

draxynnic · Apr 06, 2009, 12:58 AM // 00:58

That's not really a reason to do it but a counterargument against reasons not to do it. It's a subtle difference, but we wouldn't want to go around lightly nerfing random skills in PvE simply because it wouldn't necessarily kill them, would we? There'd have to be some reason you should do it - that it arguably may not have much of an effect in PvE is simply a reason why you can, not that you should.

You will notice that I finished that post by suggesting one way in which LC could potentially be balanced in PvP without heavily affecting it in PvE - although, admittedly, I don't have much experience with LC in either format, so I may be wrong in guesstimating the effect of the suggested nerf.

lutz · Apr 06, 2009, 02:31 AM // 02:31

If you don't have to split the skills for PvE and PvP, don't.

Is there a need for Lingering Curse to be in PvE? No.

Therefore, should we split the skills for PvE and PvP? No.

Should Lingering Curse in general be nerfed? Yes.

Draw your own conclusions.

Anon-e-mouse · Apr 06, 2009, 04:11 AM // 04:11

So says a PvP'r... Um.. no thanks, even though I don't use the skill, I really DETEST PvP'rs dictating to the PvE players which skills they should be using... stop being such snobs...

draxynnic · Apr 06, 2009, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

If you don't have to split the skills for PvE and PvP, don't.

Is there a need for Lingering Curse to be in PvE? No.

Therefore, should we split the skills for PvE and PvP? No.

Should Lingering Curse in general be nerfed? Yes.

Draw your own conclusions.

Can Lingering Curse be useful in specific circumstances in PvE? Yes.

Is it good for the game for PvE to have yet another skill rendered effectively useless due to PvP considerations?

Well, I'd say that the game is better off with a split than with a skill that isn't used at all in one side of the game. The reason why splits are better avoided is because they create a disconnect in moving from one side of the game to the other from a skill behaving differently to how it is accustomed - but the skill is still going to be more familiar if it behaves differently due to a split compared to it not having been used at all.

There probably is a more elegant solution, but I'd certainly support a split over making another skill effectively useless in PvE.

And really, you could apply your argument to every skill which has had a PvE/PvP split.

lutz · Apr 06, 2009, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Is it good for the game for PvE to have yet another skill rendered effectively useless due to PvP considerations?

Effectively useless? No.
Balanced? Yes. See, I don't think you understand the difference between balancing and "removing from the game". This is typical of an uninformed, game-deteriorating player's perspective (which means: you).

There are many "niche" skills in Guild Wars. These skills might "seem" bad, but really, they're just waiting for the right meta to appear. Examples include: [[Pensive Guardian], [[Stone Sheath], etc. These niche skills are okay.

Then there are "balanced" skills in Guild Wars, which encourage healthy playstyles in several directions. There are a lot of these. These skills contribute to an overall definition of a role, but don't single-handedly define the role. You wouldn't build a bar just because of this one skill. These include: [[Apply Poison], [[Melandru's Shot], [[Shock], [[Power Block], [[Guardian].

Then, there are stupid skills you build bars around, which deteriorate the game. These skills aren't imbalanced, but they provide for stale metas. These skills include: [[Strength of Honor], [[Warrior's Endurance], etc.

Then, there are stupid skills/skill combinations that just break the game and can be put into any build and it could be good. You could literally put this one skill/skill combination into almost every build and it would be good, because it's so amazing just by itself. See: the old [[Burning Arrow]/[[Read the Wind]/[[Flail] ranger, [[Lingering Curse].

What does Lingering Curse need to be changed into? It needs to be changed from something that "is so amazing that you always want to bring it" to "contributing to the necromancer's role" which includes degeneration, death, etc. Lingering Curse does a good job, but its numbers are just wrong.

1. No AOE, reduce to a 7 second recharge.
2. AOE effect, increase recharge to 15, 10 second duration at 14 curse.
3. AOE effect, increase recharge to 15, 20 second duration, % healing reduction scales with attribute (1% at 1 curse, 12% at 12 curse, 15% at 15 curse).

If you want healing reduction, get it from somewhere else ([[Mark of Death], [[Malign Intervention]). A spammable, multimaintainable AOE hex shouldn't reduce healing by a significant amount anywhere, even in PvE.

The more PvE/PvP split skills we have in Guild Wars, the worse this game becomes. This is a fact, not an opinion, so don't argue on this.
It makes the barrier between PvE and PvP that much greater.

FoxBat · Apr 06, 2009, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

The more PvE/PvP split skills we have in Guild Wars, the worse the PvP side becomes.

Fixed. The barrier is always one way, a large number of people stuck in PvE land could care less, which is why we got the split in the first place, and it's killed off a lot of bitching/bickering so I'm sure Anet believes they have reached their goal. I don't like it either but, ever since they gave up even token efforts at balancing PvE/hardmode, I don't see PvE benefiting much.

Specifically, LC is a "niche" skill as far as PvE is concerned, because mob healing being a serious problem is rare. While the effect is strong, it's no more widely applicable than pensive guardian, so like the latter skill it can afford to be extra good at it's job. Meanwhile healing is a big issue in the vast majority of PvP matches, so it's everything but niche there, and the power becomes a problem.

draxynnic · Apr 06, 2009, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Effectively useless? No.
Balanced? Yes. See, I don't think you understand the difference between balancing and "removing from the game". This is typical of an uninformed, game-deteriorating player's perspective (which means: you).

Oh, I understand it. I also understand that PvE and PvP are different environments in which the impacts of the same (unsplit) skill can be very different. For instance, I understand that energy denial actually does something in PvP.

I also understand that something doesn't actually need the [[Smiter's Boon] treatment to be effectively removed from the game, only to be made sufficiently worse than the competition. This is especially true for elite skills, since you can only have one on your bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

If you want healing reduction, get it from somewhere else ([[Mark of Death], [[Malign Intervention]). An AOE hex shouldn't reduce healing anywhere, even in PvE.

Let's look at the anatomy of these skills, shall we? [[Mark of Death] has a strong healing reduction. [[Malign intervention] has a weak healing reduction and a secondary effect (which can backfire on the caster's party). You've also missed [[Defile Flesh], which is basically the Necromancer equivalent of [[Mark of Death]. [[Lingering Curse] has strong healing reduction, a pretty much insignificant (in PvE) secondary effect, and an area-of-effect nature... and Elite status.

Basically, the AoE is the only reason for it to have Elite status. Remove the AoE - as you seem to be gunning for - without a significant rework would mean that you're using your elite slot for... what? A couple of pips of degen and not paying a sacrifice cost? Seems like effectively removing it from the game by making it worse than the competition to me.

And I think you grossly overestimate the power of heal reduction in PvE. Lots of mobs don't even have healing, and it's a completely wasted slot. Plenty of others have healing that can simply be outdamaged, or healing that is more effectively disrupted by other means (generally, gunning for the healers with interrupts and enough damage to bring them down). This means that in PvE, heal reduction skills are not an 'always good' skill, but a niche skill. You might bring them to deal with a specific situation in which the above tactics might not work, but they're not always going to be worth taking, as opposed to PvP where you're pretty much always going to be in a race with the other team's healers and, as you say, [[Lingering Curse] in its current form is clearly overpowered. Different environments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

The more PvE/PvP split skills we have in Guild Wars, the worse this game becomes. This is a fact, not an opinion, so don't argue on this.
It makes the barrier between PvE and PvP that much greater.

I would love to see how you would go about objectively proving this. (And before you cite permasins and other overpowered PvE-side skills - these are simply examples of overpowered skills, not that the idea itself is flawed by nature.)

Ideally, of course, PvE would be more like PvP, with enemies that fought reasonably intelligently and with intelligent builds rather than relying on things like increased level and insanely high energy recharge to pose a challenge. However, the situation is as it is, not the ideal. Given the choice, I would say that having the skill be viable in PvE but different in PvP represents a lower barrier than the skill being completely unfamiliar because it simply isn't used in one half of the game.

lutz · Apr 06, 2009, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Oh, I understand it. I also understand that PvE and PvP are different environments in which effects can be very different. For instance, I understand that energy denial actually does something in PvP.

I also understand that something doesn't actually need the [[Smiter's Boon] treatment to be effectively removed from the game, only to be made sufficiently worse than the competition. This is especially true for elite skills, since you can only have one on your bar.

Let's look at the anatomy of these skills, shall we? [[Mark of Death] has a strong healing reduction. [[Malign intervention] has a weak healing reduction and a secondary effect (which can backfire on the caster's party). You've also missed [[Defile Flesh], which is basically the Necromancer equivalent of [[Mark of Death]. [[Lingering Curse] has strong healing reduction, a pretty much insignificant (in PvE) secondary effect, and an area-of-effect nature... and Elite status.

Basically, the AoE is the only reason for it to have Elite status. Remove the AoE - as you seem to be gunning for - without a significant rework would mean that you're using your elite slot for... what? A couple of pips of degen and not paying a sacrifice cost? Seems like effectively removing it from the game by making it worse than the competition to me.

And I think you grossly overestimate the power of heal reduction in PvE. Lots of mobs don't even have healing, and it's a completely wasted slot. Plenty of others have healing that can simply be outdamaged, or healing that is more effectively disrupted by other means (generally, gunning for the healers with interrupts and enough damage to bring them down). This means that in PvE, heal reduction skills are not an 'always good' skill, but a niche skill. You might bring them to deal with a specific situation in which the above tactics might not work, but they're not always going to be worth taking, as opposed to PvP where you're pretty much always going to be in a race with the other team's healers and, as you say, [[Lingering Curse] in its current form is clearly overpowered. Different environments.

I would love to see how you would go about objectively proving this. (And before you cite permasins and other overpowered PvE-side skills - these are simply examples of overpowered skills, not that the idea itself is flawed by nature.)

Ideally, of course, PvE would be more like PvP, with enemies that fought reasonably intelligently and with intelligent builds rather than relying on things like increased level and insanely high energy recharge to pose a challenge. However, the situation is as it is, not the ideal. Given the choice, I would say that having the skill be viable in PvE but different in PvP represents a lower barrier than the skill being completely unfamiliar because it simply isn't used in one half of the game.

Unfortunately, nowadays, the definition of "viable" is "overpowered".

PvE/PvP split destroys the game because you are separating your player base, market, and essentially offering "two games in one", which never works. I could give you a one-page explanation, but you probably wouldn't read it.

Plus, the concept of a skill doing one thing in one area, then doing another thing in another area is absolutely absurd. Taken to an extreme, it would mean that in each explorable area, every skill does something different, and you would have to see which skill changes when and learn a new concept of viable playing. By increasing this barrier, you effectively hold back players from ever becoming "better" at using their skills; they rely solely on the effect rather than the usage.

In short: it encourages PvE players to suck at playing Guild Wars.

Gill Halendt · Apr 06, 2009, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Ideally, of course, PvE would be more like PvP, with enemies that fought reasonably intelligently and with intelligent builds.

Intelligent people and intelligent builds in PvP? In Guild Wars?

Anon-e-mouse · Apr 06, 2009, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Perhaps, just perhaps A-net realised a while back that the player base *IS* split amongst those who PvE and those who PvP. Skills that are over-powered in one enviroment are not necessarily over-powered in the other.

Perhaps even, A-net realised that there are more PvE'rs than PvP'rs and tailored the game to suit them.

But one thing that should never EVER happen is a skill gets nerfed in one enviroment PURELY because the OTHER enviroments players 'say' it's overpowered. There is a reason the skills were split.

A lot of PvP'rs complain that PvE is 'too easy'. And do you know WHY it's so 'easy'? It's because most of the skills that the foes in PvE use have been nerfed because of moans from the other enviroment about how over-powered they are.

It's a sort of self-fullfilling prophecy. PvP'rs complain that a skill is over-powered, skill gets nerfed, PvE becomes easier, PvP'rs complain that PvE is to easy. Quo ed demonstratum, and then it becomes a downward spiral.

It's precisely for this reason that some skills got split into PvE/PvP versions, and long may it continue.